Talk:Main Page:Archive8

Discussion
We should write infos in the bottom of the page, one after the other. It is more easy to see when there are new messages. Also many spaces are disturbing, we can write examples on separate pages and link to them. moa3333 22:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Idea

 * i was thinking a good way to link to external howtos would be to use a template similar to this... template:external


 * Some problems with this might be that people will just copy the page, regardless of copyright license


 * I think it can be worded better to solve that.... maybe
 * ZyMOS 05:52, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, we could write a warning related to the copyright on the template. But even if there is no license issue (both GFDL), should we copy the content? This will produce a fork. And a fork is never good, especially when the original page is high-quality. In this case all we need is a "résumé" or a short description. We can therefore create a new type of template, where we only request a short description of main ideas, and not a full fork of the original page. Of course, if the original page has a license that is not free at all, it is good to create a fork. moa3333 08:54, 7 April 2006 (PDT)
 * I agree, maybe instead of a direct link to creating the page we could have to goto a template page, or some type of page that suggest howto use another page to create new one, and when not to do it.
 * maybe ''[Howto eat pie]: External Link. See XXXXX for more information.   ZyMOS 22:28, 7 April 2006 (PDT)

New objects
I think we should admit objects that are not "yet" wikipedia pages in the case such a page could, one day, become a wikipedia page. this is also because i think we should have howtos and guides about very special situations. For example i have a monitor, and i would like to write down a howto about "how to deal with this monitor". It will include all you need about the monitor, only practical things. For example, 171FS.
 * I don't see any problem with that, so thanks for adding it. ZyMOS 22:17, 7 April 2006 (PDT)

Updated stuffs
I updated HowTo_Wiki:About, i pretty much redid it so you folks should check it, to see if it need some modifications ZyMOS 22:17, 7 April 2006 (PDT)
 * It's good. We have to be coherent and simple in order to attract contributors.

Wikihowto
I have redesigned the first page. I think we should change the name to Wikihowto. The reason is all the Wikimedia projects begin with a BIG letter and then have only little letters: Wikipedia not WikiPedia, Wikispecies not WikiSpecies Wikibooks not WikiBookw, etc...  If we want to become official wikimedia project, i think this name is better... moa3333 02:02, 8 April 2006 (PDT) I've updated the proposal a little (including new name). moa3333 09:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * that should good ZyMOS 16:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Coverage
There is no press coverage, none is speaking about Wikihowto, not even on blogs... The page on wikipedia was even deleted because of this... We need an idea to increase popularity so that finally more contributors will come. moa3333 02:25, 8 April 2006 (PDT)
 * i have bin mass submitting the page on search engines, when the site moved to wikia, the rating when down because the links were not direct, so i submitted with the new link.  to get high ratings it is best to have the keyword Wikhowto be linked directly to the finial redirected page http://en.howto.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page
 * ie Wikihowto
 * so i have been correcting some of the old links i have made
 * I don't deal much with on line communities, so i cant really help in that direction  ZyMOS 16:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Idea cont
what do you think of this....


 * Howto milk a goat by hand: External link, To make a local version click Here


 * local links to the new page
 * Here links to instructions on not copying directly, improve the howto instead of repeating info, don't make a fork if its not necessary, ...
 * It could be a simple template
 * and we could use this on guides and howtos as well as objects. This would fill our objects making our site more practical, and would encourage people to contribute...
 * Another benefit of this format is local will turn blue when a local version is made so people will know and can change the links
 * for example

Object: goat

Howto Pages

 * Howto feed a goat
 * Howto milk a goat by hand: External link, To make a local version click Here
 * Howto buy a goat

Updated the Japanese version of the site
I have updated the Japanese version at http://ja.howto.wikia.com. (so, maybe we could add the link to it, so that the project looked more multilingual). However, there are only 2 contributors including me, and another, named CraneBB, is long time not contributing... Also, I have some problems with the grammar. See, for example, in English you may say "Howto ... do something", and in Japanese it is not so very natural to say "Howto" in the beginning of the sentence. It is much more natural to say the grammatical object at first. E.g., "How to bake a cake?" -- "A cake how to bake?".

Any thoughts?

Inyuki 12:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe this will work Howto: A cake how to bake or Guide: A cake guide to bake ZyMOS 22:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * is the proper way to link to the Japaneses ver

Writing thoughts on the project in our userpages
I have did, I think that maybe writing your thoughts on the project in personal pages, could well work as a mean to promote the project. I am not sure how frequently people are looking to the userpages of the editors, but I do.

Inyuki 09:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

A comparison of Guide and Howto
After all what we have discussed, let me make sure I understand correctly the difference of Howto and Guide. Would it be correct to make such a comparison?:


 * A Howto [for a] person [is like] software application [for a] computer.
 * A Guide [for a] person [is like] a teacher [for a] student.

In other words, howtos would be programs, and guides would be overviews of possibilities (possible howtos) for that purpose.

For example, there could be and
 * Howto build a kite
 * Guide to building a kite (or kitebuilding??)

Howto build a kite would cover one specific method to build an exact kite, that someone build, and knows how to repeat the same things to get the same result.

Guide to building a kite would cover the general theory related with the kite building, and well, give the necessary background, and list the related howtos.

Inyuki 08:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, howtos are exact and precise and the user will only "take his own risk". Guides will let the user decide even what to do. For example you cannot recommend the use of OpenOffice or MS Word in a howto (unless it is about free software, etc). In a Guide, you can pomander one or both, and explain the advantages of both. moa3333 15:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This is a howto: How to deal with the 171FS monitor because it tells exactly what to do worth a precise monitor. This is a guide: Guide into configuring the X.org server because will let the user decide and investigate more. In the first case, it is simple, in the second case, it depends on the type of monitor you have (you cannot impose a monitor in a guide, but you can recommend a few that are "known to work well"). moa3333 15:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

updated stats
I improved the script for deriving statistics, Now it factors in redirects, so the num, and list of pages are more accurate. As a result the ''estimated' num of howtos, guides, and objects have decreased. I am also going to improve the script to factor in pages more to the recycling bin. this will also lower the numbers, so i just though id let you know.... ZyMOS 15:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Who else could use Wikihowto?
I think, companies, that want to explain, how to use their products or services, groups or orgs, wanting to promote opportunities, or guide application to their programs, even depending on location.

I think that it might create many social opportunities for people, but in some cases, might look like spam here, because I think we are more interested in something more stable than time-space limited opportunities, maybe we should stick to the things that are much more universal like physics or math is, and start from covering these kind of scholar subjects.

However, it is quite hard to decide, what should be the limits for howtos and guides in order to make this project maximally and harmoniously beneficial for the world.

Maybe it would be good if this site started being used even in these ways. It would still create to some extent practical knowledge. Also, this way it might produce a lot of contents quite quickly.

But anyway, I think that it is very fine to write a guide how to use a product or service (maybe not all kind of services), but not fine, and I wouldn't like these kind of very unstable things here. For that there could be another Wiki, something like "Wiki opportunities", or else. The deciding factor maybe would be "is this information useful in long time span".

Just pondering about the possible uses.

Inyuki 18:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we can admit some pages that are more publicity related, with a few conditions. One is the should not advertise openly. The second is they should create a howto about this as a separate page (and not include this in a general howto - for example do not write about how to use ms word in a howto about how to use a word processing tool in general). The third should be not to link to it from general objects (for examples not link to How to deal with the 171FS monitor from monitor but only from 171FS). moa3333 22:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This will make any publicity page invisible on general pages. More than that we should include only informations about how to do something, and all information that praises a product should be as a comparison of various products and must be practical (no obvious advertising). moa3333 22:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Other important thing is that if a company wants to write in a howto like "guide to word processing tools" 5 pages even practical about the benefits of his product, it must do this on the talk page until all other presented solutions have, not a 5 pages description, but a description that is proportional to their importance (marker-share, popularity, functionalities, etc). I think with this rules we will not have too many problems on the short term. moa3333 22:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is that the number of combinations of letters up to 50 is very big! So, as much as there is no obvious advertising and there are practical things. As long as they are new pages (not inside normal howtos). As long as they are not visible from general objects and how-tos, they are not disturbing. This is also one of the benefits of objects vs. categories and simple search. When you use the search, they are visible! When you use general objects, they are not visible! moa3333 23:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

About objects
It is good to have simple objects (easy to write) like this:

Object: obj

Howtos

 * link
 * link

Guides

 * link
 * link

Howtos:

 * link
 * link

Guides:

 * link
 * link

See also:

 * link
 * link

moa3333 22:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

About guides
I think we should keep the idea from wikisolutions that guides should be split in parts when they are too big. For example, Guide to free computer games should be spitted into more guides about computer games. moa3333 23:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, is it something like splitting or uniting articles in Wikipedia? Yea, I think it makes sense.
 * Inyuki 03:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

New image
First page ok. We need new image now (logo). moa3333 23:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yesterday I just thought that maybe we should think of this topic. I thought that the word "engineer" has too narrow sense, and thought of something like

About.. ..how to create everything that humans created, and beyond..


 * I think it is good to say the word "created", because it has this meaning of creation of something stable. Whereas, of course, creation consists of completing tasks, and just "doing". But stressing the final goal result - creation - I think is sounds better to reflect this more real-product oriented fashion of this site, which, of course, might sometimes be quite complex, as human resources also has to be managed in many processes of creation, and this also is a part of creation. As well as the word "create", in its real sense has the meaning of "make existent", and we can use this word to even our moods, or any entity to say "to make existent". As well as this word has a sense of will. For the time being I have changed the logo to this one, but maybe you would suggest something better.


 * So, maybe this is okay in sense of semantics, but I am not sure about the graphical representation. I liked the ZyMOS picture, but it might be a little bit too complex (too many objects in one place) to compress it into approx 140x140 logo, so maybe it could be used in the future to create the international page (with a globe), like http://www.wikipedia.org.


 * Inyuki 05:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikihow
I have looked a little at WikiHow. I must admit some of the WikiHows are funny, but not practical. See Pick-the-Right-Video-Game-Console. Both the name (big letters) and the article seem confusing. Also many pages have unnecessary warnings (like The dragons may kill you). It is a more funny and "nice" place, it may produce interesting pages to browse that we might link to also. But i hope Wikihowto will succeed too, with different concept (maybe more technical at first). moa3333 00:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

They have about 100 active contributors and only 6 with more than 100 edits every month. 30 new articles every day. statistics. I think at least 15 of the 100 and one or two of the 6 would switch to Wikihowto, the other would not because Wikihow is more complete. moa3333 00:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that we have over 6.5 mlrd people on this planet, and a very ambicious goal. WikiHow is not GFDL'ed, and is too easy to use, and seems to have less freedom for complex howtos with encapsulation of procedures, and some other features that our one does. But still, I think we shouldn't compare ourselves, but find a way to align our goals, and make something one. Concentrate on the goal, not on the name.
 * Inyuki 05:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

logo
I made one for my old site, but it probable violates some copy rights. I just downloaded the open clipart library http://www.openclipart.org/wiki/?ClipartRequests so ill see what i can to with it. I liked my design, the idea was to have a bunch of things being done that creates the next thing being done, but i did it in a rush so it didn't work out perfect. in fact most of it doesn't make sense.. but here it is Help:Contribute/Graphics

also ZyMOS (As I assume.)
 * The howto, objects, ... list a mostly accurate now and so are the page counts, im guessing less than 5% error
 * Please spell check submissions, not may people comment about our site, but one major complain was spelling. I'm horrible at it so i got a spell check plug in for seamonkey/firefox...
 * If you could create something ABSTRACT, but still concrete to very directly express this meaning, I think it is okay. And also, I think we could wait about adding the name into logo. It should be something that we all agree with. Actually, when I added the first logo, I intentionally didn't write any name there, in order to give people freedom to identify it as an idea, without imposing a name.

Inyuki 05:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"About how to create" logo
Added new Wiki.png. What I think is better about this, is that -
 * it is more semantically correct
 * it is shorter
 * it is more abstract
 * it uses simpler words, so even being an abstract, is still much easier to understand for larger number of people, even for 6 years old children.

Now someone needs to invent a picture, which represented this same thing, and would be understandable for a 6-year old. Inyuki 05:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think an identifiable icon, would be much better, icons are usually abstract, not concrete. the icon for wikipedia the icon is more metaphoric.  as for the name... i am using gimp with layers so it can be changed easily, but if we wish to change it, we should discuses it asap.  the more popular our site the harder it will be to change it... ZyMOS 19:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Name of the Site
Suggestions:
 * wikihowto
 * wiki solutions
 * howto wiki
 * howtopedia
 * wikitorial
 * wikiknowhow
 * wiki guides
 * wiki howtos
 * wikiDIY
 * technopedia
 * add any more...
 * once will have a list we should narrow it down to a few and and open vote on the main page.... ZyMOS 19:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * We have discussed it a little, and postponed it. It's maybe a more difficult topic, I created a separate page for this discussion: Domain name problem, and linked it from the Main Page, where it is written CurrentEvents "Searching for a domain name... help".
 * Inyuki 04:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Inyuki 04:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)